ninehertz

1. • Podge
   • WickedWesticle says:

     If those fans that are happy downloading knew they could listen to all the stuff online anyway then it may stop them from downloading and it would generate online plays (and therefore exposure with sites like Last.fm) for the artists.
     online plays but still no cash to cover costs (see below).
     
     
     WickedWesticle says:

     PS3s and XBoxes have a lot to answer for with the decline in live show attendence but so does the doom/whatever scene itself. I mean bands and promoters here. It's disorganised, badly publisiced, badly promoted and disconnected. Social media sites are abused and rarely do bands coordinate gig promotion.
     total agreement however its a catch 22. promoters are loosing interest because turn out is poor, turn out is poor because gigs ant well promoted. again neither of which are really piracy issues
     
     
     WickedWesticle says:

     There are other ways to make money - merchandise, royalties through online plays (ReverbNation, Last.fm etc.), sync licencing (Pump Audio) and so on.
     i have to be perfectly honest but I know nothing of how these online systems work. my worry is that although its all OK to stream stuff while you are at your computer and hence get royalties it doesn't work when you need to get it on your ipod and so people will still download because of this and then not pay enough to cover costs. better than nothing but no single solution
     
     
     WickedWesticle says:

     Live gigs for small bands rarely pay well so bands must look for alternative ways of making money.
     exactly but now one of the main fund raisers has now been cut out of the equation (selling CDs). Tshirts and other merch need to be ordered in different sizes, cost a LOT more to produce and have a much lower profit. so you end up looking to some one else to provide funding. some one like a record label, problem is record label's aren't overly interested any more in that end of things...
     
     
     WickedWesticle says:

     Sounds like the guy's a bit of a tool with no knowledge of what a label like yours does.
     very much so but it seems that this is now the norm. someone else chooses what the band and the label should be doing without consulting either of them.
     
     i agree that the music industry needs to change but its the short sighted selfishness of some fans that is going to cause more harm than good
   • [15:21 on 20/04/09]
2. • bad admiral
   • tape trading was good though.
   • [15:29 on 20/04/09]
3. • Jack
   • WickedWesticle says:

     PS3s and XBoxes have a lot to answer for with the decline in live show attendence but so does the doom/whatever scene itself. I mean bands and promoters here. It's disorganised, badly publisiced, badly promoted and disconnected. Social media sites are abused and rarely do bands coordinate gig promotion.
     
     
     I'd love to change that about gigs, i think promoters are often properly lazy and get surprised when people don't turn up to gigs they haven't even bothered to advertise. It's not hard to go and spread posters around and flyers and just do something a bit more interesting. I think posters are really important too, I do have a mild obsession with them but it definitely makes people notice an event if the flyer/poster is half decent.
     I also think it's good to be straight with bands about things like money etc, half the time if we do a gig we have no idea if we're going to get paid or not etc. It's easier just to tell people from the start what the deal is. Anyways off topic but I hope I can do some decent Mindzap gigs this year and put a few of these things right
   • [15:33 on 20/04/09]
4. • WickedWesticle
   • Podge says:

     online plays but still no cash to cover costs (see below).
     
     
     But the cash may be realised in the long term. If a band continues to release more music and grown in popularity then new fans may buy the back catalogue.
     
     
     Podge says:

     total agreement however its a catch 22. promoters are loosing interest because turn out is poor, turn out is poor because gigs ant well promoted. again neither of which are really piracy issues
     
     
     It's related to piracy in the grand scheme of things. If the reality of piracy (and therefore allowing streaming of music to 'combat' piracy) means relying on several ways for bands to earn money then gigging is one of those ways. Promoters and bands need to rethink their gig strategy. Fewer gigs, better promotion, cheaper entry, pay the bands only a small amount but through a good gig give them exposure to a bigger crowd and more people they may be able to sell physical media to.
     
     
     Podge says:

     i have to be perfectly honest but I know nothing of how these online systems work. my worry is that although its all OK to stream stuff while you are at your computer and hence get royalties it doesn't work when you need to get it on your ipod and so people will still download because of this and then not pay enough to cover costs. better than nothing but no single solution
     
     
     Streaming to portable devices is on the horizon if not here already (last.fm app on iPhone?). ReverbNation distribute 50% of their advertising revenue to the artists and the amount each artist gets based on popularity (sort of) on the site. Those kind of sites need to be worked at though.
     
     The point here is that there is no single solution anymore.
     
     
     
     Podge says:

     exactly but now one of the main fund raisers has now been cut out of the equation (selling CDs). Tshirts and other merch need to be ordered in different sizes, cost a LOT more to produce and have a much lower profit. so you end up looking to some one else to provide funding. some one like a record label, problem is record label's aren't overly interested any more in that end of things...
     
     
     I don't think it's been cut out of the equation but it's obviously not the main breadwinner any more.
     
     I haven't properly looked into t shirts and such like yet but I will be soon so I can't comment on costs here. I can understand why you wouldn't want to be forking out for merch for your bands though.
     
     
     
     Podge says:

     i agree that the music industry needs to change but its the short sighted selfishness of some fans that is going to cause more harm than good
     
     
     I guess time will tell.
   • [16:07 on 20/04/09]
5. • sabbathfan
   • Podge says:

     and as for making your music memorable so people pass it on by humming it to each other. well i think you may be a banana short of a picnic on that one.
     
     
     
     How do you think traditional folk tunes have survived for over a thousand years then? By people playing them to the next generation, who keep it going on down the line
   • [16:16 on 20/04/09]
6. • sabbathfan
   • Podge says:

     Sam, why would live albums be any different to studio albums, the cost is in the production of the CD not the recording.
     
     
     I'd just record TONS of live material and then release the sets as high quality CDR bootlegs sold on our merch stall for 50p a go. Cheap and effective if you get the recording quality right.
     
     I think live albums are much more interesting/fun to listen to than studio albums 90% of the time, but that's just my view
   • [16:18 on 20/04/09]
7. • WickedWesticle
   • Jack Dickinson says:

     WickedWesticle says:

     PS3s and XBoxes have a lot to answer for with the decline in live show attendence but so does the doom/whatever scene itself. I mean bands and promoters here. It's disorganised, badly publisiced, badly promoted and disconnected. Social media sites are abused and rarely do bands coordinate gig promotion.

     
     
     I'd love to change that about gigs, i think promoters are often properly lazy and get surprised when people don't turn up to gigs they haven't even bothered to advertise. It's not hard to go and spread posters around and flyers and just do something a bit more interesting. I think posters are really important too, I do have a mild obsession with them but it definitely makes people notice an event if the flyer/poster is half decent.
     I also think it's good to be straight with bands about things like money etc, half the time if we do a gig we have no idea if we're going to get paid or not etc. It's easier just to tell people from the start what the deal is. Anyways off topic but I hope I can do some decent Mindzap gigs this year and put a few of these things right
     
     
     It would be great if you can. Jake from Dead Existence puts on good gigs. He keeps them far apart to allow time to sort out a decent bill and advertise it properly.
     
     Yeah a good poster shows that you mean business but you need other stuff too.
     
     I think managing things like facebook events would help as well. Most gigs seem to have 1 event for each band and the only person attending is the guy in the band that made the event. The promoter should coordinate this stuff (or ask an organised band to do it) so the advertising/promotion through social sites gains momentum and has some meaning for those people that are attending. Last.fm do ok for merging duplicate events though.
     
     I think getting along a free photographer is a good idea too (obviously, cos I'll be doing it for the 3rd). Most pro photographers are far too expensive for underground bands to pay for and decent band photos are hard to find (speaking as a musician).
     
     You should ask some labels/distros if they wanna come along and set up a merch table too. Try and get a real scene thing happening. It could be like an independant record shop at a gig.
   • [16:18 on 20/04/09]
8. • Jack
   • [/quote]
     How do you think traditional folk tunes have survived for over a thousand years then? By people playing them to the next generation, who keep it going on down the line[/quote]
     
     That is indeed true, folk worked that way and when people started making the original field recordings with the first portable sound recording devices of that music they then started selling it to other places, the artists gained exposure. It needed the extra push of the recorded medium to get it further than its regional areas. Thats why somewhere like america got music from all the different areas start to mingle together as people heard different varieties of folk etc. But it still relied on the recordings to get it to that level as well as the roaming musician types. Humming aint going to travel the distance these days, it didnt even work then to that extent
     [Edited by Jack at 16:32 on 20/04/09]
   • [16:27 on 20/04/09]
9. • Jack
   • WickedWesticle says:

     Jack Dickinson says:

     WickedWesticle says:

     PS3s and XBoxes have a lot to answer for with the decline in live show attendence but so does the doom/whatever scene itself. I mean bands and promoters here. It's disorganised, badly publisiced, badly promoted and disconnected. Social media sites are abused and rarely do bands coordinate gig promotion.

     
     
     I'd love to change that about gigs, i think promoters are often properly lazy and get surprised when people don't turn up to gigs they haven't even bothered to advertise. It's not hard to go and spread posters around and flyers and just do something a bit more interesting. I think posters are really important too, I do have a mild obsession with them but it definitely makes people notice an event if the flyer/poster is half decent.
     I also think it's good to be straight with bands about things like money etc, half the time if we do a gig we have no idea if we're going to get paid or not etc. It's easier just to tell people from the start what the deal is. Anyways off topic but I hope I can do some decent Mindzap gigs this year and put a few of these things right

     
     
     It would be great if you can. Jake from Dead Existence puts on good gigs. He keeps them far apart to allow time to sort out a decent bill and advertise it properly.
     
     Yeah a good poster shows that you mean business but you need other stuff too.
     
     I think managing things like facebook events would help as well. Most gigs seem to have 1 event for each band and the only person attending is the guy in the band that made the event. The promoter should coordinate this stuff (or ask an organised band to do it) so the advertising/promotion through social sites gains momentum and has some meaning for those people that are attending. Last.fm do ok for merging duplicate events though.
     
     I think getting along a free photographer is a good idea too (obviously, cos I'll be doing it for the 3rd). Most pro photographers are far too expensive for underground bands to pay for and decent band photos are hard to find (speaking as a musician).
     
     You should ask some labels/distros if they wanna come along and set up a merch table too. Try and get a real scene thing happening. It could be like an independant record shop at a gig.
     
     
     We had that for the ninehertz gig at the underworld, Podge had his distro and we had the poster artists selling their stuff. It does give it a nice buzz. Your right about that facebook thing, I made an event to start with for the 3rd but all the bands have made seperate ones so its hard to know attendence from that and keep news in one place etc
   • [16:31 on 20/04/09]
10. • sabbathfan
    • Given the finite nature of resources on Earth the future of human society may well be one which is forced to be less globalised and more local/community knit in nature as it will be the only alternative to humaity's extinction though, so....
    • [16:33 on 20/04/09]
11. • sabbathfan
    • Jack Dickinson says:

      WickedWesticle says:

      Jack Dickinson says:

      WickedWesticle says:

      PS3s and XBoxes have a lot to answer for with the decline in live show attendence but so does the doom/whatever scene itself. I mean bands and promoters here. It's disorganised, badly publisiced, badly promoted and disconnected. Social media sites are abused and rarely do bands coordinate gig promotion.

      
      
      I'd love to change that about gigs, i think promoters are often properly lazy and get surprised when people don't turn up to gigs they haven't even bothered to advertise. It's not hard to go and spread posters around and flyers and just do something a bit more interesting. I think posters are really important too, I do have a mild obsession with them but it definitely makes people notice an event if the flyer/poster is half decent.
      I also think it's good to be straight with bands about things like money etc, half the time if we do a gig we have no idea if we're going to get paid or not etc. It's easier just to tell people from the start what the deal is. Anyways off topic but I hope I can do some decent Mindzap gigs this year and put a few of these things right

      
      
      It would be great if you can. Jake from Dead Existence puts on good gigs. He keeps them far apart to allow time to sort out a decent bill and advertise it properly.
      
      Yeah a good poster shows that you mean business but you need other stuff too.
      
      I think managing things like facebook events would help as well. Most gigs seem to have 1 event for each band and the only person attending is the guy in the band that made the event. The promoter should coordinate this stuff (or ask an organised band to do it) so the advertising/promotion through social sites gains momentum and has some meaning for those people that are attending. Last.fm do ok for merging duplicate events though.
      
      I think getting along a free photographer is a good idea too (obviously, cos I'll be doing it for the 3rd). Most pro photographers are far too expensive for underground bands to pay for and decent band photos are hard to find (speaking as a musician).
      
      You should ask some labels/distros if they wanna come along and set up a merch table too. Try and get a real scene thing happening. It could be like an independant record shop at a gig.

      
      
      We had that for the ninehertz gig at the underworld, Podge had his distro and we had the poster artists selling their stuff. It does give it a nice buzz. Your right about that facebook thing, I made an event to start with for the 3rd but all the bands have made seperate ones so its hard to know attendence from that and keep news in one place etc
      
      
      If you get enough people working together for the common good on this like the mindzap all dayer thing I went to last august then you should be able to get things rolling but it's basically all about having the balls to stand up and do it.
      
      I don't know if I'd be able to do that, my idea I was espousing would revolve about me having complete control over everything I did artistically. I probably shouldn't be in a band for this reason to be honest and it's prob why I haven't formed one! I guess I'm too frightened of things going wrong [too frightened of life in general come to that].
    • [16:36 on 20/04/09]
12. • noone
    • Podge, I steal from Waterstones all the time , fully aware of the risk of getting caught. I couldn't afford to quell my thirst for books on my wage so is what I'm doing wrong as you say?
      Or do you just mean in wrong in the ' against our laws and christian values wrong ' ?
      I think it's a victimless crime as long as I'm not taking the last copy in the shop so that the next person can't buy it. I wouldn't dream of nicking from a distro run by somebody on a hobby / self funded basis.
      when I'm done with the book I generally pass it on or give it to a charity shop if I don't like it enough to keep. I like to think it's a Robin Hood kind of scenario.
      I always download before making a purchase to get a taste of whats on offer.
      [Edited by noone at 17:01 on 20/04/09]
    • [16:59 on 20/04/09]
13. • Podge
    • Jack Wes and Sam, you seem to be describing 9hz.
    • [17:52 on 20/04/09]
14. • Jack
    • well yup Ninehertz fit in the category of good guys/girls in terms of promoting. Quick note as well, the gig in August was a group effort, a Ninehertz gig not a Mindzap one. This next one is me solo, so I balls up it's me responsible, but I'm sure it'll be fine
      [Edited by Jack at 18:50 on 20/04/09]
    • [18:49 on 20/04/09]
15. • Carey
    • Jack Dickinson says:

      Quick note as well, the gig in August was a group effort, a Ninehertz gig not a Mindzap one. This next one is me solo, so I balls up it's me responsible, but I'm sure it'll be fine
      
      
      Most definitely a group effect with you as the lynchpin! I'm sure the 3rd will go really well.
      
      I've found the comments on promotion in this thread very interesting. When I started putting on gigs ten years ago, the internet wasn't really available as a promotional tool. As a rule, turnouts were much higher than they are now. I am absolutely sure that the hard copy flyers/posters that were all we had in those days reached far less people than event invitations on facebook/myspace/internet forum gig spamming/mass texts and emails do now. I have also frequently distributed 300 flyers for a gig with an eventual turnout of 30 people I know personally. In some cases promotion is done very poorly, but more and more often, promoters do a good job, people know about the gig and still choose not to go.
      
      Why is this? A wider variety of entertainment available at home, including pirated downloads of music and films? Less and less desire for face to face contact, fuelled by internet forums, online gaming and live sex chatrooms? Late opening and drinks offers in pubs without a music licence? In the UK, gigs are linked with drinking heavily, chatting to your mates, being seen by the cool kids and going on the pull. Bands frequently complain about audiences only watching their mates or the headliners, and arriving late, leaving early or talking through all the other bands. I know bands who have played in Europe who talk about very different, much more respectful and interested audiences, and I'd be interested to see if turnouts have fallen as much in say, Holland, as we perceive them to have done here. If so, is this because gigs perform more of a social and less of an artistic function in Britain?
      
    • [19:31 on 20/04/09]
16. • sabbathfan
    • ultimatekev says:

      Podge, I steal from Waterstones all the time , fully aware of the risk of getting caught. I couldn't afford to quell my thirst for books on my wage so is what I'm doing wrong as you say?
      Or do you just mean in wrong in the ' against our laws and christian values wrong ' ?
      I think it's a victimless crime as long as I'm not taking the last copy in the shop so that the next person can't buy it. I wouldn't dream of nicking from a distro run by somebody on a hobby / self funded basis.
      when I'm done with the book I generally pass it on or give it to a charity shop if I don't like it enough to keep. I like to think it's a Robin Hood kind of scenario.
      
      
      
      
      try these places perhaps?
    • [19:41 on 20/04/09]
17. • sabbathfan
    • Carey says:

      In the UK, gigs are linked with drinking heavily, chatting to your mates, being seen by the cool kids and going on the pull. Bands frequently complain about audiences only watching their mates or the headliners, and arriving late, leaving early or talking through all the other bands. I know bands who have played in Europe who talk about very different, much more respectful and interested audiences, and I'd be interested to see if turnouts have fallen as much in say, Holland, as we perceive them to have done here. If so, is this because gigs perform more of a social and less of an artistic function in Britain?
      
      
      
      I like the social function of gigs as well and sometimes just as much as the music... maybe it's just me.
      
      Those audiences on the Continent seem to be more in line with how things were in the 1960s and 1970s over here.
    • [19:43 on 20/04/09]
18. • noone
    • sabbathfan says:

      ultimatekev says:

      Podge, I steal from Waterstones all the time , fully aware of the risk of getting caught. I couldn't afford to quell my thirst for books on my wage so is what I'm doing wrong as you say?
      Or do you just mean in wrong in the ' against our laws and christian values wrong ' ?
      I think it's a victimless crime as long as I'm not taking the last copy in the shop so that the next person can't buy it. I wouldn't dream of nicking from a distro run by somebody on a hobby / self funded basis.
      when I'm done with the book I generally pass it on or give it to a charity shop if I don't like it enough to keep. I like to think it's a Robin Hood kind of scenario.
      

      
      
      
      try these places perhaps?
      
      
      thanks smart arse yes I do use the library occasionally but the selection of contemporary fiction, and even some classics you'd expect to be in, is pissy poor to say the least.
      Waterstones is a bit like a library in that the books are free except the books are better , in great condition , in stock as a hardback on the day of release and make great gifts for family and friends.
      The security in the Library is ten times better than in Waterstones ( not that I'd ever nick from the library even if they did have anything decent in )
    • [22:39 on 20/04/09]
19. • JenTheHen
    • The library will order in pretty much any book if you ask them, Kev...
    • [06:53 on 21/04/09]
20. • Rob Himself
    • JenTheHen says:

      The library will order in pretty much any book if you ask them, Kev...
      
      
      Totally.
      
      Buying books is daft.
      
      
    • [08:06 on 21/04/09]

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