ninehertz

1. • pull-my-plonker
   • I'm interested to get peoples views on how music should be distributed/bought, as I know it's something we all probably feel quite strongly about one way or the other...
     
     My views are a bit weird.
     I have never/nor will never illegally download music, unless it's virtually impossible to attain it any other way (e.g. the original Sons of Kyuss demos).
     I really like building up my CD collection, and enjoy buying music in CD form as a total package, rather than just the tracks from itunes or otherwise.
     However, I have no problem with borrowing and copying a CD from a friend or downloading something put up for free by a band or preview website (e.g. allthatisheavy) - which is kinda hippopotamuscritical of me.
     I guess I just don't like cheating the system, but also I love owning the whole package and playing something because I've invested in it and taken a chance on it's quality. If that means I have to wait and save, or consider my options when obtaining music, then so be it.
     
     What do you lot think?
   • [20:44 on 06/11/09]
2. • Podge
   • i use it as a try before you buy, however the buying is an integral part
   • [21:13 on 06/11/09]
3. • bad admiral
   • life's too short to buy music when you could be spending your money on cristal and bitches. On the other hand, small labels need funds to keep the good work going so i support them or buy from bands direct if possible.
   • [09:15 on 07/11/09]
4. • noone
   • I'll download what I want, when I want.
     I used to collect records but it's expensive and pointless and I never listened to them.
     Associating music with profit compromises the whole thing.
     If you want to make some money open a subway franchise.
     It always seems to be the major recording artists and labels who whinge about illegal downloading.
     If downloading is killing the music business then I don't think it's happening quick enough.
     People often forget that in the grand scale of things , the recording of music onto media to make a profit is quite a recent phenomenon.
     Music has been around thousands of years before an industry and will be around a lot longer.
   • [10:11 on 07/11/09]
5. • sabbathfan
   • This is a tricky topic to discuss. For what it's worth, I don't see a problem in downloading a well-known band's music for free. But it's worth remembering that those big bands got their fame and money by growing out of far humbler beginnings, and the way they got on the upward ascent was due to people paying good money for their music.
     
     Which is where the flaw in the downloading argument is. It's tough enough for smaller and less well-known bands to make cash off their music as it is. I know that a lot of people have enough decency to buy the physical product, but nevertheless the chance they have of any income at all from their music is very much reduced from the already small chance it was before by illegal downloading. So where might the next Iron Maiden, Zeppelin, Pink Floyd come from? They won't as they will find it impossible to make a career in the music business in the 'traditional' way. The industry and the ways of marketing music will change, and maybe we have seen the last of the big rock behemoths, the bands who make enough off their music to be doing it as a living constanty. Maybe being in a band will be more of a part-time thing; still putting music out into the world but on a much smaller scale, and the whole way of dealing with music will change.
     [Edited by sabbathfan at 12:31 on 07/11/09]
   • [12:29 on 07/11/09]
6. • Hopkins
   • Podge says:

     i use it as a try before you buy, however the buying is an integral part
     
     
     this
     
     also, buy direct from bands/labels where possible
   • [12:47 on 07/11/09]
7. • WickedWesticle
   • The game has changed totally. I'm fine with downloading and I'm fine if people download my music. I'm also happy if people wanna buy my stuff on CD
     
     I tend to buy CDs from mates bands and tend to stream or steal everything else.
     
     Frankly it's tough shit if bands can't make money through selling physical CDs. It's not the 80s anymore and nobody 'deserves' to make money from music anyway. It's art not a job and if you can make money then good on you.
   • [09:34 on 09/11/09]
8. • Donny
   • WickedWesticle says:

     The game has changed totally. I'm fine with downloading and I'm fine if people download my music. I'm also happy if people wanna buy my stuff on CD
     
     I tend to buy CDs from mates bands and tend to stream or steal everything else.
     
     Frankly it's tough shit if bands can't make money through selling physical CDs. It's not the 80s anymore and nobody 'deserves' to make money from music anyway. It's art not a job and if you can make money then good on you.
     
     
     Yep, that says everything I need to say.
     
     Apart from I watched some news report recently with some music industry prick saying 'if people keep stealing music then no-one will bother making it anymore'. What a prick. As if the sole motivation anyone has for making music is making money hand over fist.
     [Edited by Donny at 11:09 on 09/11/09]
   • [11:09 on 09/11/09]
9. • Rob Himself
   • Yeh it's totally different for people at the level many of us on here are at. I stopped stealing music a while ago, I think Spotify has totally changed my 'try-before-I-buy' attitude to downloading. I listen to a new album on there a few times and if it's awesome, I'll buy it.
     
     It's the up-and-coming signed/professional bands and artists that should be worried about illegal downloading. Everyone below that level should be grateful that anyone wants to listen to their music at all, and everyone above (long-established artists like Metallica or whoever) should be content with their vast millions not to be bothered.
   • [13:51 on 09/11/09]
10. • JenTheHen
    • Did anyone see this?
      
      Article that basically says people who download music spend m...
    • [14:10 on 09/11/09]
11. • mamba
    • I still download a fair bit on a 'try before I buy' basis. I'd like to say I buy all albums that I like that I've downloaded but it'd cost me a fortune. I do buy a lot of them though. This has ended up with me having dozens of cd's that haven't even made it out of their cellophane wrappers. It does clear my conscience a bit though.
      
      Spotify has reduced my downloading of some of the more well known bands.
    • [14:11 on 09/11/09]
12. • WickedWesticle
    • Rob Himself says:

      Yeh it's totally different for people at the level many of us on here are at. I stopped stealing music a while ago, I think Spotify has totally changed my 'try-before-I-buy' attitude to downloading. I listen to a new album on there a few times and if it's awesome, I'll buy it.
      
      It's the up-and-coming signed/professional bands and artists that should be worried about illegal downloading. Everyone below that level should be grateful that anyone wants to listen to their music at all, and everyone above (long-established artists like Metallica or whoever) should be content with their vast millions not to be bothered.
      
      
      Not sure I agree with the up and coming bit. I think the possibility that people can easily download a band's music benefits any musician at any level. Most musicians, so I read, make most of their money on merchandise and not the sale of the their music. The easier it is to obtain your music the more chance people have of hearing/liking/falling in love with/obsessing over your music and then paying to see you play live, buying a t-shirt/whatever.
    • [14:55 on 09/11/09]
13. • mike
    • I regularly download stuff, but if I didn't, I'd never hear half the stuff I do, then buy, so it's good if you ask me. There's no good being precious about it now, it's out there whatever you do to stop it.
      
      I only ever really buy music from small labels now, or eBay, no point paying 10-15 unless you can't get it anywhere else, I just bought about 10 Fall albums for about 3 quid each, nice.
    • [18:04 on 09/11/09]
14. • bad admiral
    • Donny says:

      As if the sole motivation anyone has for making music is making money hand over fist.
      
      
      errrm...
      
      that's why i do it.
      
      money, getting wasted and laydeez. seriously.
    • [18:18 on 09/11/09]
15. • Podge
    • I'm closing Calculon because no one buys anything any more, just steals it.
    • [18:33 on 09/11/09]
16. • noone
    • If you don't like ' illegal ' downloading don't fucking do it.
      
    • [19:48 on 09/11/09]
17. • Smockboy25
    • As far as illegal downloading goes, do follow what people say with the try before you buy argument. Does have it's benefits and have been turned onto some killer stuff that I might not have found out otherwise. It does have it's benefits for out of print releases without paying some bootlegging scumbag for, eg: the Sons of Kyuss has been bootlegged a number of times for instance.
      
      As I tend to go for vinyl when picking up new releases, don't feel bad about downloading mp3s of them and seems the vinyl with download card is an ever growing option.
      
      But it has to be said that the smaller bands/labels need people's support in the form of £££ to be able to cover costs, put out further releases but with more and more blogs springing up there's a large element of serial downloaders that are very quick to request the latest release by X amount of bands.
      
      Dunno if anyone here uses Soulseek (P2P) at all? There are a number of users that have tens of thousands of mp3s and it seems to be a hoarding mentality of having all the releases of a scene, surely they don't
      a - have the time to listen to everything?
      b - like all the stuff they have?
      
      Bottom line is you like it, buy it really ain't it? So much better to have a lovely physical copy with all the artwork, etc rather than a compressed mp3 on your computer?
      
      
    • [20:23 on 09/11/09]
18. • WickedWesticle
    • Smockboy25 says:

      As far as illegal downloading goes, do follow what people say with the try before you buy argument. Does have it's benefits and have been turned onto some killer stuff that I might not have found out otherwise. It does have it's benefits for out of print releases without paying some bootlegging scumbag for, eg: the Sons of Kyuss has been bootlegged a number of times for instance.
      
      As I tend to go for vinyl when picking up new releases, don't feel bad about downloading mp3s of them and seems the vinyl with download card is an ever growing option.
      
      But it has to be said that the smaller bands/labels need people's support in the form of £££ to be able to cover costs, put out further releases but with more and more blogs springing up there's a large element of serial downloaders that are very quick to request the latest release by X amount of bands.
      
      Dunno if anyone here uses Soulseek (P2P) at all? There are a number of users that have tens of thousands of mp3s and it seems to be a hoarding mentality of having all the releases of a scene, surely they don't
      a - have the time to listen to everything?
      b - like all the stuff they have?
      
      Bottom line is you like it, buy it really ain't it? So much better to have a lovely physical copy with all the artwork, etc rather than a compressed mp3 on your computer?
      
      
      
      
      Not really. I can't afford all the stuff I like so I buy from mates and small bands. Everything else I stream or steal. I don't want the physical thing cos I don't have the room.
      
      The reality is it's try before you like, not try before you buy. If I can't stream or steal a band's music I can't hear them, know if I like them or tell my mates how cool they are. I lose and the band loses.
      
      I don't buy the covering costs for smaller artists bit either. I've probably spent somewhere between 10 and 15k over the last four years buying drum kits, stick, skins, cymbals, half a van, studio time, accommodation, petrol, CDs, t-shirts, a printer, ink blah blah blah. There is no way I will recoup those costs any time soon and a few quid here and there will make little difference. Small bands HAVE to work real jobs and it's there real jobs that pay for the music.
    • [21:27 on 09/11/09]
19. • Podge
    • Smockboy25 says:

      But it has to be said that the smaller bands/labels need people's support in the form of £££ to be able to cover costs, put out further releases but with more and more blogs springing up there's a large element of serial downloaders that are very quick to request the latest release by X amount of bands.
      
      Yes to this 100%
      
      
      WickedWesticle says:

      Not really. I can't afford all the stuff I like so I buy from mates and small bands. Everything else I stream or steal. I don't want the physical thing cos I don't have the room.
      
      that is probably the most feeble reasoning I have ever read. I cant afford a Porshe but you don't see me down the dealership wheeling one out the door when they aren't looking. I'm sure you'd change your tune if some one walked off with your drums because they cant afford their own.
      
      
      WickedWesticle says:

      I don't buy the covering costs for smaller artists bit either. I've probably spent somewhere between 10 and 15k over the last four years buying drum kits, stick, skins, cymbals, half a van, studio time, accommodation, petrol, CDs, t-shirts, a printer, ink blah blah blah. There is no way I will recoup those costs any time soon and a few quid here and there will make little difference. Small bands HAVE to work real jobs and it's there real jobs that pay for the music.
      
      if you have seriously spent that amount then you are a fool, I have spent significantly less putting out 16 records and buying musical equipment.
      
      the theft of music can only be justified by those who do it because its so difficult to get caught
    • [21:53 on 09/11/09]
20. • WickedWesticle
    • Podge says:

      Smockboy25 says:

      But it has to be said that the smaller bands/labels need people's support in the form of £££ to be able to cover costs, put out further releases but with more and more blogs springing up there's a large element of serial downloaders that are very quick to request the latest release by X amount of bands.

      
      Yes to this 100%
      
      (sorry but I can't cope with this nested quote stuff very well. Too much Sailor Jerry's)
      
      I disagree. Nobody NEEDS to cover costs. They would like to but they don't NEED to. This is a money first, music second idea and it's not good. You can't cover costs anymore whether you want to or not by relying on selling physical CDs so don't bother. To cover the full cost of our recording, accommodation and CD printing + other bits and bobs we'd need to sell around 500 CDs. This is very unlikely. When we have the next release ready I'm not going to delay it because we didn't make our money back on this one. I'll gladly take the hit again and put my music out. Music first, money second.
      
      

      WickedWesticle says:

      Not really. I can't afford all the stuff I like so I buy from mates and small bands. Everything else I stream or steal. I don't want the physical thing cos I don't have the room.

      
      that is probably the most feeble reasoning I have ever read. I cant afford a Porshe but you don't see me down the dealership wheeling one out the door when they aren't looking. I'm sure you'd change your tune if some one walked off with your drums because they cant afford their own.
      
      A drum kit is an entirely different 'thing' to an 'album'. You can't compare the 2. If you do want to equate the 2 then I've let 729 people walk away with mine over the last 6 days compared to the 52 that have bought it. You cannot argue with that. Music first, money second.
      
      I don't want physical CDs because they take up space that I don't have and I rarely play a CD. I ripped them all years ago and didn't look back. That is a damn good reason.
      
      The fact is there is more really good music available for free than I could ever listen to. Anyone that stops me from listening to their music by not allowing me to stream it in full has lost me as a potential listener because I'll just go and listen to one of the other really cool bands that I can hear. The other band loses, I lose (but don't know any better).
      
      

      WickedWesticle says:

      I don't buy the covering costs for smaller artists bit either. I've probably spent somewhere between 10 and 15k over the last four years buying drum kits, stick, skins, cymbals, half a van, studio time, accommodation, petrol, CDs, t-shirts, a printer, ink blah blah blah. There is no way I will recoup those costs any time soon and a few quid here and there will make little difference. Small bands HAVE to work real jobs and it's there real jobs that pay for the music.

      
      if you have seriously spent that amount then you are a fool, I have spent significantly less putting out 16 records and buying musical equipment.
      
      the theft of music can only be justified by those who do it because its so difficult to get caught
      
      
      I've had some of the best times of my life over the last 4 years and I've never been so engrossed in a project. I would spend more if I had it.
      
      Theft of music will become largely irrelevant as most music becomes available to stream on demand for very small amounts of money. This is the way things are moving so bands need to adapt now to survive. I hardly steal stuff now because I don't even need to do that.
      
      The reality is that the internet is living up to everything it should be - a free exchange of ideas and information. When you record music onto any medium, be it physical or digital it becomes information. You cannot deny or defy this but you can adapt and evolve with it.
    • [22:37 on 09/11/09]

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