ninehertz

1. • slack mammoth
   • Not the Somalian kind
     
     Thoughts? I'm dead against downloading.
   • [14:52 on 17/04/09]
2. • Hopkins
   • still working fine for me
     
     i still support the little guys though, always buy my cds/merch direct from bands if poss at all times
   • [14:58 on 17/04/09]
3. • Ben
   • Why should someone's outdated business model be propped up by legislation? Other industries have to adapt to survive, why can't the entertainment industry?
     
     Discuss...
   • [15:37 on 17/04/09]
4. • bad admiral
   • this is bullshit!
     
     apparently, swedish prison is alright.
   • [15:38 on 17/04/09]
5. • Donny
   • Hmmm.
     
     I download. I feel bad about it. Not bad enough to stop though.
     
     From a personal point of view running a label and being in a band, I'd rather people stole the music off the net and came to gigs off that back of liking the tracks.
     
     Get that doesn't count if you're big time though.
   • [16:00 on 17/04/09]
6. • JonBBQ
   • There's two sides to every argument...although I completely agree with what they're saying about being made an example of, to scare others.
     
     I liked it when The Pirate Bay tried to buy the principality of Sealand so they could host their servers out of any country's legal juristiction. Smart guys.
   • [19:05 on 17/04/09]
7. • mike
   • I buy CDs and records when its worth it, but download a hell of a lot, I wouldn't get to hear nearly half the amount of stuff I do without that kind of stuff, so I don't see a problem with it.
     
     I fail to feel sorry for big record labels who have been ripping me and my friends off for years either.
   • [08:16 on 18/04/09]
8. • WickedWesticle
   • I download and I buy.
     
     Personally I would much rather someone downloaded my music than didn't even get to hear it because I only gave them a 30 second preview unless they wanted to buy a cd.
   • [08:40 on 18/04/09]
9. • Podge
   • well that's a bit of a silly statement. who on earth gives 30 second samples? no one.
     
     in this day and age you can find at least 1 full free track if not 2 legally without too much issue. if its mainstream then there will be singles on rotation on MTV etc and if its non mainstream then you can use any number of myspace / facebook / other websites.
     
     the issue is that many people are just NOT buying stuff. everyone that posts here is involved with music some how so of course they will most likely buy as well as download but then not everyone is like us.
     
     if you are a fairly active band such as flatlands or RSP then it will probably help as much as hinder. however if you are fairly new and cant do too many gigs such as Gorse then it will hinder. we have all seen gig attendance drop off in the last few years, how is that so considering a lot of people argue that downloading illegal music gets people down to shows? the hard fact is that people are lazy, they don't want to leave their computer. and now that music is free its become a throwaway item. if you have not paid for it then there is no value to it. if there is no value to something people do not respect it.
     
     people have stopped becoming inquisitive, there was a time when people used to listen to tracks on the radio and would then decide if they wanted to buy the record, now people want to know they will like all of it before they spend any money. when you go to the cinema and see a film, if it turns out you dont like it do you ask for your money back? no, because thats not how that system works. you only want to see if you like all of something first because you can.
     
     Chris has a reasonable point in that he always tries to buy from the band direct (something i also try to do) but then who supplied the band with the merch? most likely the label and they may have done it for free as an advance. now if the label isn't getting any money where will the band get their next load from? how will the label fund the next release? its all got to be taken in context and considered carefully.
     
     when Gorse's ep showed up on a blog site with no link to either the band or Calculon I asked them to remove it as their "disclaimer" about if you download you should also buy it couldn't ring true, without an extra effort how could people buy it?. the guy said that it was one of his most popular downloads and had over 200 hits. to date between me and the band we have sold less than half that. I need to sell around another 75 to break even, a relatively small number compared to bigger labels such as undergroove or sound devastation. I cant honestly see me selling that many and as such I'll be making a large loss. why should I pay in cash and the band pay in lost opportunity (after all I'll not be putting out their next release or anyone else's) just so others can have something for free?
     
     Ben's post above makes the biggest point. its an out dated business model. often if you read the reports in full, its loss of profit that they display, not actual loss. they are still making HUGE amounts of money just not quite as huge as before. big labels have been force into the mp3 market by external forces such as apple or trying to provide a legal alternative. major labels should have been pushing the forefront of the market not sitting around waiting for people to come to them.
     
     I also have an issue with bands them selves. I've seen bands of all sizes over pricing their stuff. you don't need to charge £3 for a cdr of your demo. excluding recording costs it probably cost about 20p for a disc and then 2 minutes of your time. i always use the 5 aside analogy. we are doing this for fun not for money. if you go and play 5 aside then you don't expect to make any money out of it, you don't charge the home team just for you to play, you don't demand they provide you with after match drinks and food, you do it out of your own pocket because you enjoy it. however as soon as its a musical interest you start wanting money. yes free stuff is nice and makes it easier but trying to make money out of it is wrong.
     
     anyway basically its a many armed beast, different for the independent as it is for the major, just like its different for those who are involved in music and those that are not.
     
     you will not stop people downloading music for free, but also you will see, in some areas, music suffering for your unwillingness to pay for it
   • [09:39 on 18/04/09]
10. • Podge
    • I'd also like to add another point in reply to Mike & Wes
      
      I've just been down the paper shop and seen the rows of magazines and newspapers. now on their front page they have a basic run-down of what is inside but it doesn't tell me too much really.
      
      I never thought of stealing them, should I have done? after all I wouldn't get to read half the amount of stuff if I had to pay for it and the visual 30 second incite I had into what is inside wasn't enough so should they have given it to me for free and then said i can pay for it if I like it?
      
      not quite the same but distinct parallels can be drawn. it also adds to people only steal stuff because they know they can get away with it.
    • [10:19 on 18/04/09]
11. • Donny
    • We all know the cause and effect, it's been done to death here and elsewhere. But I think the ship has sailed in terms of just asking people to buy more records.
      
      What we should really be discussing is the future rather than going over the problem again and again. We've some intelligent people on this board (not me though), anyone got any ideas?
      
      I've often considered trying to use the torrent/blog sites to my advantage. Put a recording up there with the tracks, some nice high res artwork, a short live video, a bio, gig dates etc. Whack it all in a zip and send it on. See what happens. You wouldn't have pressing costs, so you're only dealing with recording costs and to be honest small bands rarely make them back from selling CD's (well I never have, but maybe that's just me).
      
      Alternatively, why doesn't a bunch of bright internet types put together a decent metal download service like itunes and actually have underground stuff available without having all the shit of having to go through itunes torturous regime of approval. That last one sounds like hard work though. And pricey.
      
      These are just ideas obviously.
    • [13:43 on 18/04/09]
12. • Donny
    • Podge says:

      I'd also like to add another point in reply to Mike & Wes
      
      I've just been down the paper shop and seen the rows of magazines and newspapers. now on their front page they have a basic run-down of what is inside but it doesn't tell me too much really.
      
      I never thought of stealing them, should I have done? after all I wouldn't get to read half the amount of stuff if I had to pay for it and the visual 30 second incite I had into what is inside wasn't enough so should they have given it to me for free and then said i can pay for it if I like it?
      
      not quite the same but distinct parallels can be drawn. it also adds to people only steal stuff because they know they can get away with it.
      
      
      Podge - The internet is killing print too. Won't be long before newsagents follow the independent record shops.
    • [13:45 on 18/04/09]
13. • Podge
    • Donny says:

      Podge - The internet is killing print too. Won't be long before newsagents follow the independent record shops.
      
      very true but they are a little more forward thinking, they are providing the internet source them selves & funding through advertising not trying to sue people because their sales are dropping. my point was that people steal music because they think they can get away with it. the justification a lot of people use for downloading music illegally doesn't stand up when put alongside other media.
      
      
      Donny says:

      I've often considered trying to use the torrent/blog sites to my advantage. Put a recording up there with the tracks, some nice high res artwork, a short live video, a bio, gig dates etc. Whack it all in a zip and send it on. See what happens. You wouldn't have pressing costs, so you're only dealing with recording costs and to be honest small bands rarely make them back from selling CD's (well I never have, but maybe that's just me).
      
      this in essence is what i'm planning to do with the new 9hz comp for the same reasons, an experiment to see what happens and how it is received by the general public
    • [14:36 on 18/04/09]
14. • sabbathfan
    • Donny says:

      Podge says:

      I'd also like to add another point in reply to Mike & Wes
      
      I've just been down the paper shop and seen the rows of magazines and newspapers. now on their front page they have a basic run-down of what is inside but it doesn't tell me too much really.
      
      I never thought of stealing them, should I have done? after all I wouldn't get to read half the amount of stuff if I had to pay for it and the visual 30 second incite I had into what is inside wasn't enough so should they have given it to me for free and then said i can pay for it if I like it?
      
      not quite the same but distinct parallels can be drawn. it also adds to people only steal stuff because they know they can get away with it.

      
      
      Podge - The internet is killing print too. Won't be long before newsagents follow the independent record shops.
      
      
      I'm not sure how true this is, with regards to books and magazines. Remember that people like to take books/magazines with them as they don't need to be hooked into a power point everywhere, also more importantly that there is a limit to how much your eyes can take reading from a computer screen and print is always literally easier on the eye.
      
      Of course once the Kindle technology [electronic liquid ink basically, not as hard on the eyes] gets refined then this will change things....
      [Edited by sabbathfan at 21:18 on 18/04/09]
    • [21:04 on 18/04/09]
15. • sabbathfan
    • Donny says:

      We all know the cause and effect, it's been done to death here and elsewhere. But I think the ship has sailed in terms of just asking people to buy more records.
      
      What we should really be discussing is the future rather than going over the problem again and again. We've some intelligent people on this board (not me though), anyone got any ideas?
      
      I've often considered trying to use the torrent/blog sites to my advantage. Put a recording up there with the tracks, some nice high res artwork, a short live video, a bio, gig dates etc. Whack it all in a zip and send it on. See what happens. You wouldn't have pressing costs, so you're only dealing with recording costs and to be honest small bands rarely make them back from selling CD's (well I never have, but maybe that's just me).
      
      Alternatively, why doesn't a bunch of bright internet types put together a decent metal download service like itunes and actually have underground stuff available without having all the shit of having to go through itunes torturous regime of approval. That last one sounds like hard work though. And pricey.
      
      These are just ideas obviously.
      
      
      I never really downloaded music because until recently I was still on 56k and it just wasn't worth it as it took too long. I haven't bothered to start even though I'm on broadband now.
      
      Personally though I'm not that musically talented and have no plans of forming a band right now I'm so frightened off the traditional system of record labels and distros and all that by what I hear that if I had a band I'd:
      
      1) take Podge's point and start out doing it for fun and if something happens then great, if not then not to worry
      
      2) look to the past and don't actually do any studio releases, instead write and rehearse tons of songs and build up a varied repertoire. Then start playing live gigs, record every single one possible and then when some time has passed release them as a string of live albums, selling them only at future gigs. Then maybe do a one-off studio compilation/album every now and then. If the music gets put up on the net then just don't bother about it and keep playing live... also go back to the past and rely on people memorizing the songs and passing them on by singing/playing them to each other to help spread the word [a bit like bards/minstrels used to work]. This wouldn't of course generate enough money to live off so I'd have to keep up a source of income from somewhere else, but I'd like to try and get music out to people without thinking about that side of things.
    • [21:18 on 18/04/09]
16. • Beerman
    • The newspaper is property. If you take it you will deprive the owner of it and the benefits he gets from it, in this case the money from its sale. If you stand there and read it, you have not stolen it for those reasons. If your mate buys it and gives it to you it becomes your property to do with as you wish. If you take a photograph of it, it is not theft. If you stand there and make a hand written copy of its contents, it may be a breach of copyright, but it is not theft. "Breach of copyright is theft" is a slogan put out by the corporations that own the copyright to nearly everything..
      
      The pirate bay trial was a political trial and an example of US multinationals changing laws not only in their own country but in others across the world.
      [Edited by Beerman at 09:28 on 19/04/09]
    • [09:26 on 19/04/09]
17. • Podge
    • Sam, why would live albums be any different to studio albums, the cost is in the production of the CD not the recording. and as for making your music memorable so people pass it on by humming it to each other. well i think you may be a banana short of a picnic on that one.
      
      beerman are you suggesting we find a record shop and then only ever listen to music in there while truing to record it off their PA system? because that way its not illegal? I've never heard such a stupid thing
    • [10:17 on 19/04/09]
18. • Ben
    • I think his point is (sorry for second guessing) is that when you steal something like a handbag or a car or even a CD off a shelf, you are depriving someone of that object. However it gets more complicated with downloads etc because the original owner still has the item in question. Therefore by many it is seen as a 'victimless' crime. We all know that is a naive view in reality as it's more complicated than that.
      
      Personally I'd like the majors to move to a subscription based model, or charge reasonable amount for DRM free digital music, or ideally a combination of the two. They also need to be less retarded in things like what you can do with your music - someone from Sony said not long ago that it's illegal to rip a CD you have bought to put it on to your portable music player for example.
      
      For smaller labels, I'd like to see some sort of ebay/amazon marketplace where bands can sell direct to fans without being ripped off. This would be more difficult to achieve and there would have to be lots of different ones to prevent big corporates taking it all over and ripping people off. Unless one of the big corporates grows some morals and decides to do it non-profit but I don't think that will ever happen.
      
      Any thoughts on that?
    • [11:04 on 19/04/09]
19. • Podge
    • Ben says:

      For smaller labels, I'd like to see some sort of ebay/amazon marketplace where bands can sell direct to fans without being ripped off. This would be more difficult to achieve and there would have to be lots of different ones to prevent big corporates taking it all over and ripping people off. Unless one of the big corporates grows some morals and decides to do it non-profit but I don't think that will ever happen.
      
      
      i'm not really sure what you are are trying to say here. many smaller labels & bands do sell direct to their fans and i'm not sure that anyone really is ripping anyone off.
      
      unfortunatly its law for companies (ones with share holders) to make a profit. as such not for profit stuff is difficult to run and very unlikely to happen. from what I remember Virgin radio was set up as not for profit, then it became really successful and was sold for £85m which probably did include some profit.
      
      although going out on a tangent, I think the whole mp3 track by track purchasing thing (although still expensive) has opened up some buyer led purchasing power as previously if I wanted just one track of an album I had to get the whole album or hunt down a single. now I can happily buy all the good tracks and not have to pay for the ones I don't like.
      
      I think the bigger issue is now that people are sharing large single items such as films. with these you cant just pick the bits you like. and this is where the film companies will take over in the lobbying from the record companies. the structure that is being put in place for music is unlikely to work for films as so once the record companies start to pipe down we'll just see the whole thing rise up again from a different sector.
    • [12:17 on 19/04/09]
20. • Beerman
    • That's right Ben.
      
      Prodge, no I'm not suggesting that.
      
      If I buy something and I want share it with someone else that's up to me. The original owner of the thing can't claim ownership and sell it at the same time. That's a guiding principle of what property is. Copyright was originally intended to protect writers from publishers who'd take their book, copy it, and go into competition with the writer's own publisher, taking a share of the profits. Soon the publishers got together and demanded the copyright from the writers or no one would print his book at all, and that highway robbery is manifest today in the Music Industry.
      
      Downloading isn't a victimless crime because musicians are only victims because that's the way they see themselves. They want to treat their music as a product then complain when others treat it the same. They see downloads and equate them to lost sales, which they most certainly are not. And it's only a crime because the Music Industry and the US government have made it one, it certainly isn't theft. Now they are pressurising other governments to change their laws accordingly. This is as much a political issue as a commercial one and it has as much to do with Music vs Entertainment, Art vs Money as either of them.
      
      
      [Edited by Beerman at 12:26 on 19/04/09]
    • [12:23 on 19/04/09]

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